Knicks - Pelicans 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Alex English]

Jul 23, 2014 14:30:12 GMT -5 Vlade Divac said:

Besides, we all know about your little trick with future picks, right JR?

So is this everybody's problem with this trade? That I am part of it? It does seem like my reputation for robbing teams in trades means any deals I make get way more scrutiny than other deals.

I don't believe JR Smith is good enough to warrant this being rejected. Another reason I don't think talent is the issue here is that this trade got accepted:

Jul 9, 2014 10:05:58 GMT -5 Walt Frazier said:

Los Angeles Lakers Trade:
74 Jordan Hill $3,500,000
74 Nick Young $1,106,942 $1,227,985
73 Wesley Johnson $916,099
73 Jordan Farmar $884,293
72 Kent Bazemore $762,195

Total: $7,169,529

Toronto Raptors Trade:

75 John Salmons $7,580,000 $7,000,000
61 Nando De Colo $1,463,000

Total: $9,043,000

Vlade gave away his entire bench for nothing. It was allowed because he said he had a plan and we knew he wouldn't abandon the league. Well Magic has been around forever and he has already said he likes his team better after this trade, both with the long term core and financial flexibility. So lets scratch that objection off the list.

Is the problem the first round pick? Because this trade got accepted:

Jul 15, 2014 16:27:16 GMT -5 Josh Barber said:

Brooklyn Nets Send:
74 Perry Jones - $1,082,520 - $1,129,200 - $2,038,206 - $3,036,926
67 Reggie Bullock - $1,149,000 - $1,200,720 - $1,252,400 - $2,255,644 - $3,313,542
OKC 2014 1st Rounder

Total: $2,231,520



Atlanta Hawks Send:
68 Dennis Schroeder - $1,617,840 - $1,690,680 - $1,763,400 - $2,708,582 - $3,824,518

Total: $1,617,840

The Nets basically just gave away a 2014 1st when they didn't need to at all. Schroeder's value is nowhere close to two similarly positioned prospects and a first in the upcoming draft.

Are we not functioning on the idea that we allow trades so long as they don't destroy one team by leaving them without any good assets? Josh even touched on it here:

Jul 23, 2014 13:17:35 GMT -5 Josh Barber said:

I'm gonna switch to an accept. I've been rejecting a lot recently, and I suppose this isn't really franchise crippling in any way. I still think Detroit wrecks Atlanta in this trade, but everyone else seems to really love Monroe, so maybe I'm in the minority here.

Trade passed

I'm pretty sure having a core of Carmelo Anthony, Tyson Chandler, Tim Hardaway Jr., Iman Shumpert, and Ben McLemore along with a ridiculous amount of money to spend in free agency doesn't leave the Knicks crippled.

I don't know of any other reasons this trade could be getting so much criticism apart from the fact that I'm involved.

[Brian Scalabrine]

I don't think it's a terrible trade but saying a 1st is worth a 2nd just isn't correct.

[Alex English]

Jul 23, 2014 15:29:46 GMT -5 Brian Scalabrine said:

I don't think it's a terrible trade but saying a 1st is worth a 2nd just isn't correct.

Is the 31st pick in the 2014 draft worth more than the 30th pick in the 2094 draft? Yes it is.

Obviously that is extreme but you see my point about time being a factor. If we make the future draft closer and closer from 80 years away, to 50 years away, to 20 years away, to 3 years away, there will be a point where a person would rather have the future 1st instead of the current 2nd. That point will be a matter of opinion and will be different for everyone. This isn't a black/white, right/wrong, situation where you can say it is objective.

[Brian Scalabrine]

Well I guess that's where we disagree because I think in any situation no matter what everyone would rather have a future 1st than a second, within a realistic 10 year Window. I didn't mean to make such a fuss over this ill leave the rest if the thread to tc discussion.

[Walt Frazier]

If we could guarantee this 2nd rounder was pick 31-38 or so, AND we could guarantee the 1st is not a lotto pick, then I might say those picks are even.

However, Alex already had a solid team that he has made better, and this trade makes him even better yet. That 2nd has a better chance to be 50th than 40th, let alone a top 5-8 pick in the round.

Also, due to when our 2014 draft is likely to take place (sometime in the midst of the 2014-15 real life season), that pick will really lose value. We will already know most of the good 2nd rounders, and they won't still be around at the end of our draft.

Basically, if we drafted right now, you have a small chance of getting a useful player at pick 50. But when two months of the season go by, that chance goes waaaay down.

[Vlade Divac]

None of the trades you cited have anything to do with the issue at hand. While it will probably be an okay trade, I just think the Knicks are set up for something to not go there way. Honestly, what do the Knicks really gain from this trade? Dudley and Smith aren't even horrible players....I don't know but I would probably vote to reject if I were on the TC.

As far as your reputation, that's what happens when you make good trades. Welcome to the big leagues, Mr. English!

[Alex English]

Jul 23, 2014 16:27:40 GMT -5 Walt Frazier said:

If we could guarantee this 2nd rounder was pick 31-38 or so, AND we could guarantee the 1st is not a lotto pick, then I might say those picks are even.

However, Alex already had a solid team that he has made better, and this trade makes him even better yet. That 2nd has a better chance to be 50th than 40th, let alone a top 5-8 pick in the round.

Also, due to when our 2014 draft is likely to take place (sometime in the midst of the 2014-15 real life season), that pick will really lose value. We will already know most of the good 2nd rounders, and they won't still be around at the end of our draft.

Basically, if we drafted right now, you have a small chance of getting a useful player at pick 50. But when two months of the season go by, that chance goes waaaay down.

I don't disagree with this, but in the context of this trade does that 2017 1st really make it rejectable? I think worse trades have been accepted. This deal doesn't destroy the Knicks, and both Magic and I are vet GMs who aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

I didn't do much to defend the last trade, but I've decided to on this one. I don't want to keep arguing with people though. I want some votes and if it is rejected then I guess it's the end of it.

[Vlade Divac]

Jul 23, 2014 16:58:39 GMT -5 Alex English said:

Jul 23, 2014 16:27:40 GMT -5 Walt Frazier said:

If we could guarantee this 2nd rounder was pick 31-38 or so, AND we could guarantee the 1st is not a lotto pick, then I might say those picks are even.

However, Alex already had a solid team that he has made better, and this trade makes him even better yet. That 2nd has a better chance to be 50th than 40th, let alone a top 5-8 pick in the round.

Also, due to when our 2014 draft is likely to take place (sometime in the midst of the 2014-15 real life season), that pick will really lose value. We will already know most of the good 2nd rounders, and they won't still be around at the end of our draft.

Basically, if we drafted right now, you have a small chance of getting a useful player at pick 50. But when two months of the season go by, that chance goes waaaay down.

I don't disagree with this, but in the context of this trade does that 2017 1st really make it rejectable? I think worse trades have been accepted. This deal doesn't destroy the Knicks, and both Magic and I are vet GMs who aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

I didn't do much to defend the last trade, but I've decided to on this one. I don't want to keep arguing with people though. I want some votes and if it is rejected then I guess it's the end of it.

I don't really feel like arguing either but to clarify it is more the Knick's situation with Melo than Magic's skill as a GM. I know he resigned in real life but they really are a mess.

[Magic Johnson]

It's not just get Lebron to sign with Melo Vlade it's the fact that if you have cap space available with good young talent (which I'll have) and a superstar (Melo) and it being NY there is always a chance for any big name FA to sign with us.

I agree with Alex in the sense that this trade is biased because he did many good trades in D5, but even in D5 he lost a trade.

Wanna take a guess which one, the trade he did with me that trade hurt him because in the end although he got Kyrie I was able to get Dragic, Randolph, Vucevic and a first round pick at the end of the day and indirectly help me get Harrison Barnes and with that I beat his team in the best of 7 series.

It's not a guarantee that pick will be still a valuable pick by that time, by that point I could have a playoff team and a powerhouse team who knows, also at that point McLemore could really become a special player while JR is a trainwreck waiting to happen at anytime.

[JR Wiles]

Jul 23, 2014 18:29:28 GMT -5 Magic Johnson said:

It's not just get Lebron to sign with Melo Vlade it's the fact that if you have cap space available with good young talent (which I'll have) and a superstar (Melo) and it being NY there is always a chance for any big name FA to sign with us.

I agree with Alex in the sense that this trade is biased because he did many good trades in D5, but even in D5 he lost a trade.

Wanna take a guess which one, the trade he did with me that trade hurt him because in the end although he got Kyrie I was able to get Dragic, Randolph, Vucevic and a first round pick at the end of the day and indirectly help me get Harrison Barnes and with that I beat his team in the best of 7 series.

It's not a guarantee that pick will be still a valuable pick by that time, by that point I could have a playoff team and a powerhouse team who knows, also at that point McLemore could really become a special player while JR is a trainwreck waiting to happen at anytime.

One way to win arguments and trades in sim is being able to talk to people and sound good, sound smart, have facts...with these things..any trade is possible!(Walt 101).

[Magic Johnson]

Also Vlade you said JR isn't a bad player that's true he is not, but you guys are way overrating him in this case.

the guy is 84th in WAR (wins above replacement)
and 111th in real plus/minus.

That's not a top 5 talent I am giving up.

In addition JR Smith ranked 196th in TS percentage among 337 players.
As far as Value Added and Estimated Win Share to a team he is 114th.

Last but not least JR Smith is 173th in PER.

Those are not stats that favor JR Smith and receiving a great elite trade piece in return.

[Glenn Robinson]

Looking at the trade again, I've decided what I want to do.

While JR Smith is a pretty good player in sim, he had a down year. If Magic wants to try and hope for McLemore to come around, then that is fine. He's only been in the league for one season and although he had a down year, he has room to grow.

I'm still not sure why Magic is throwing in a first round pick. I think it would be a more even deal if that 1st wasn't included. Yes, I know it's in 2017, but 1st rounders are valuable, especially in this league. Doesn't make sense to just throw it away on a deal like this.

Both these GM's are seasoned vets who have shown to gameplan into the future. I'm willing to put my faith in them executing more moves down the road to accomplish the goals they set out for their team.

With that being said, I'll accept this deal.

[Vlade Divac]

Jul 23, 2014 18:39:09 GMT -5 Magic Johnson said:

Also Vlade you said JR isn't a bad player that's true he is not, but you guys are way overrating him in this case.

the guy is 84th in WAR (wins above replacement)
and 111th in real plus/minus.

That's not a top 5 talent I am giving up.

In addition JR Smith ranked 196th in TS percentage among 337 players.
As far as Value Added and Estimated Win Share to a team he is 114th.

Last but not least JR Smith is 173th in PER.

Those are not stats that favor JR Smith and receiving a great elite trade piece in return.

I understand what you are doing but I think you could trade Dudley and JR Smith for something cheaper.

[Josh Barber]

I really hate rejecting trades, but I'm still gonna vote to reject this based on the same reasons as before

1-1, still waiting on votes from Bird & Izzo

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 22, 2014 11:34:56 GMT -5 Alex English said:

^{New York Knicks trade:}
82 JR Smith - $5,565,000 - $5,982,375 - $6,399,750
78 Jared Dudley - $4,250,000 - $4,250,000 - $4,250,000
72 Jeremy Tyler - $556,584 - $948,163
NYK 2017 1st round pick
NYK 2015 2nd round pick

Total: $10,371,584


^{New Orleans Pelicans trade:}
71 Ben McLemore - $2,895,960 - $3,026,280 - $3,156,600 - $4,008,882 - $5,375,910
75 Alonzo Gee - $3,250,000 - $3,250,000
76 CJ Miles - $2,225,000
NOP 2014 2nd round pick

Total: $8,370,960

Works under 125% rule

---

I accept. This second attempt has a couple changes. The Knicks first round pick is a year later, so now it won't be realized for three and a half years. I also added my 2014 second, so considering the depth of this draft and huge amount of time between now and that first, I think the Knicks now get the most valuable pick in this trade. On top of that it still has the original benefits for both of our teams. I fill in the weakness in my starting five, and Knicks save more than $7 million in cap space while improving their long term core.

This is the same trade but with different picks.

Even if you believe in some weird universe that McLemore is worth JR Smith, you still have the two role players that cancel each other out. Then the picks come in to play. 

JR Smith + NYK Picks =/= McLemore and a 2nd rounder, thats just my opinion, and thats basically what it comes down to. McLemore is an unproven rookie who just got replaced by Stauskus. 

Maybe if Magic got rid of all of his picks, and Alex put a 2014 2nd in there, it'd be ok. 

I still am confused as to how Alex continues to pull the wool over people eyes, but he is damn good at it.